Saturday, December 30, 2006

How to Stop Being an Ignorant/Indifferent White Feminist...

Post dedication Yolanda, cause I don't want to see another WOC blogger leave.

Why'd I start this blog?

Actually, I had no intention of starting one because I'm not the best writer, and I read far too many blogs/articles per day to even try to summarize what I want to say. But at a certain point, I realized when I wrote comments on other people's blogs I was either a)muted b)'attacked'/'insulted' by librul white bois c)generally ignored. So, basically I started this blog for some space to call my own as a WOC.

Anyways, despite being 'political' there are indeed some topics I tend to shy away from (again because I don't think I am the best writer and we all tend to believe - 'someone else is already doing it, do I really need to?'). One of these topics I shy away from is the inability of white feminists to understand their own ignorance and perpetuation of 'racism'. Oh shite, shoot me cause I know y'all are thinking "bloody hell, there goes another one of those coloured gals playing the race card". Whine, whine, whine - is this all these coloured gals do?

It's really quite funny because if it wasn't for the internet I would not have any 'white' (white as 'dominant' not ethnic/religious minority) feminist friends. I do indeed surround myself with people of colour (both progressive and non-progressive). Having said that, I'm not a stranger to internet feminist communities and like many of you, I started out by participating at the Ms. Boards eons ago. At that time however, I was not 'officially' a feminist. I was a learner/lurker.

Over the years, one thing has been made clearer to me than ever - it's that the internet is a white space. Yeah, we can harp about how it's egalitarian - promises to be so etc... But anyone who has a site-meter should/can easily figure out which countries their traffic is coming from. Whatever happened to the golden promises of bridging the 'digital divide'... like everything else that's about inequitable distribution it's been thrown on the back-burner.

I digress, if the majority of bloggers are white and male, and the majority of feminist bloggers are white and middle-class it is no wonder that 'we' (WOC) are often discontent with the content of blogistan. Because I am not a separatist by any account and don't want to start a 'fight' (though there shouldn't be any for anything that I'm saying) I am trying to approach this matter as calmly and rationally as I can.

The following are just my suggestions about how you can stop being an ignorant/indifferent white feminist:

1) Stop quoting mainstream white conservative/liberal media for your 'token' race relations post. BUT if you do - try to look at that article from a 'third world perspective'/'Global South' perspective.

No, I'm fucking serious. You're all very quick to dissect mainstream news when they report/misreport some event that happens to any white woman. You instantly call bias when you see it. You're the first to point out "they're insulting said woman because they said this or that" (and I fully support you when you do this). But, don't you think that the same 'biased' lens is used to report on things that happen to the 'poor, oppressed, 'retarded', incapable, hopeless, voiceless' women of colour masses that comprise the majority of the world? You know it was this same 'save the women of Afghanistan' bullshit that was used by the US govt to invade Afghanistan, right? Women's rights didn't matter until GW wanted to invade a country, despite Afghan women who repeatedly called out for help under the Taliban often risking their lives to call out to the outside world.

So this should make you wonder how WOC are used in the mainstream media. Here's a clue, they're primarily used to perpetuate the idea that all MOC are evil-coloured-patriarchs and they're cultures are backwards and stupid. This is called "R-A-C-I-S-M".

I am not saying that you point out the WOC oppression globally in order to perpetuate myths about them, but rather NONE of this 'documentation work' that you do is supported by adequate WOC analysis or references. I.e you post about it - without any contextualization. You rarely do that for ANY articles written about white women. You scoff and laugh at how they are written in favour of patriarchy.

It's easy to point out patriarchy exists everywhere, it's harder to get a clue on how mainstream media rarely points out stories of the strong women of colour that do amazing work ALL OVER THE WORLD. With all these pathetic coloured women that exist globally - you'd wonder how a diasporic south asian woman ever got 'radicalized'... huh?

Indeed, a very nice prof of mine did ask me this very patronizing question once "How'd you ever become a south Asian [emphasis hers] radical feminist?", to which I responded "the same way you became a white one".

So when you post up an article about how the oppressed, miserable coloured women of the world who are dying under evil-coloured-people's patriarchy - try in some form or shape to account for media bias.

2) Read more WOC books. As a WOC I've been indoctrinated into the same white patriarchal BS that all of you have too, and like you it was not by 'choice'. Like you, I too have to do my homework. I've read all the cornerstone feminist books that you have (more or less) - but how many WOC perspectives do you seriously read? Do you own more than 5 WOC books? Do you own at least 2-3 post-colonial feminist readers/compilations? Do you own any third world books written by WOC?

Even if you do, do you feel you thoroughly understand everything that is being said in those books?

Any feminist theory 101 class has that nice little 'minorities' section tacked on at the end, but seriously - do you think your education on WOC extends only thus far? Because if it does, well then - I too should stop reading all the new material that keeps on being added to this body of work daily. "Hey, we read bell hooks' "Ain't I a Woman" back in 1981, that's all the education we need to know. We're down with the you need your own space bit. We also clap when you make some noise too, we're not the R-word."

Like my own process of ridding myself of my own prejudices will NEVER come to a halt, neither does yours. You too must continually 'get with the program' and 'upgrade' your views. As we know feminism is not isolated from the other political/economic/social pogroms that happen in our world.

3) Stop reacting to our requests with knee-jerkedness. We're not attacking you, we're saying this cause we consider you our allies and if you really support women or claim to be a 'feminist' i.e. one who fights for 'women's rights' then you better realize "I am a woman too" or maybe you need to read "Ain't I a Woman" a few hundred times again.

Such knee-jerkedness is similar to the way privileged white men respond to your accusations of sexism. Accusations that we as women also support.

The funny thing is, y'all probably feel you need to walk on eggshells before you address anything cultural/racial... funny thing is as you will see further in this post how much I have had to hold in over the past few months when I visit your blogs.

4) Don't use us as tokens. This rarely happens in blogistan, but it does happen more often than not in the 'real world'. Many of you feminist bloggers are quick to point out that 'your blogs are not educational resources for men', instead men should take it upon themselves to educate themselves about their own privilege. Likewise, you as white women need to do the same. We are not your token pieces. We are not 'obligated' to 'educate' you about race relations or anything else for that matter.

Like you, on some days I want to just 'shoot the shit'. I do not want to post about feminism/racism/whatever else. I too just want to put up a youtube video and bop my head up and down...

5) This should be fucking self-explanatory: Stop tolerating racist shit on your blogs. And by racist, I'm not only talking about 'overt' racism (which should be obvious) - but the kind of ignorant remarks that I do not have the time or energy to respond to but have read on more than one occasion.

As a radical leftist I am usually quite unforgiving and though my little blog does not matter much - there is a reason why your ass will never be on my 'blogroll' regardless of how big/important/analytical/famous it is. Largely it's because you just don't get it. I may link to a wonderful post you've written, I may link to ten of them because the quality of your writing is amazing and I completely recognize that - but I will never put you on my blogroll. ('yeah, yawn whoop dee doo AD, who cares!').

Some examples:

a) Reclusive Leftist: I really don't know why I am bothering when you continue to tolerate such a vile 'troll' just because you two are 'friends'. Disgusting that's all I can say. Poltergeist - don't even f'ing bother posting here - I will indeed delete every single comment you make.

b) I Blame the Patriarchy:

In which there are at least half a dozen really fucked up comments:

Quote: What really annoyed me about all this was the way some Indian men would come to the West, enjoy the sexual freedom offered here and then go back to India to marry the virgin their families had found for them.

Oh yeah, you know cause those really crazy fucked upeth horny brown men can't keep their hands off pure white pussy, those beastly, junglee savages! Of course this comparison can only be made because 'civilized and educated white men never, ever expect women to be virgins for them'.

Um, sorry lady - it's because women in the west are repeatedly and openly hyper-sexualized (of course not because it's their fault) globally.

In which ANOTHER commenter in the same thread makes this totally unnecessary comparison about a 'middle eastern' person she knew to this 'poor, helpless Indian woman' that was being discussed. I.e. essentially equating 'one brown evil religion with the next'.... Cause you know there are only 2 billion Muslim and Hindu's globally, right? And they're all kinda middle eastern and brownish.

Quote: Within the past five years, a 17-yr-old middle-eastern girl in the vicinity was murdered by her cousins for dating someone other than her intended.

c) Pandagon, Punkass Blog. ahhh, I'm tired - I don't want to say anything past 'burqa-gate' and your totally bitching on WOC in your comments section cause you 'just didn't get it'. (I recognize these have already been discussed to death, but I will use them as examples).

and I'm sure there are a shit load more....

Again, if you are going to come back and attack me about using you as examples - reread #3 again. If you are true to your word about being a feminist, not just a 'white feminist in particular', my criticisms of such behaviour are not unwarranted and you will do what you can to either 're-educate yourself' or to call yourself a 'white feminist' or 'white womanist'.

6) Making culturally irrelevant comparisons (or allow such comments to take place in your threads without drawing attention to them - see above). Wut? I.e. if you are not fully familiar with the context or reasoning of the cultural/racial comparison you are trying to make it is best to refrain from making it and sticking to something in which you are making a more effective, informed and intelligent point.

For example

a) I Blame the Patriarchy:

QUOTE: "Writing in the Australian, Pamela Bone complains that when a bunch of Muslim feminists (Muslim feminists! What’s next, “gay Republicans”?) met in New York last week to fix an agenda for dispelling a couple of anti-Muslim rumors going around (that they’re terrorists, and that Islam oppresses women), the media gave it a big fat pass. Bone thinks it should have been front page news on accounta Muslim feminists have the solution for the war on terror."

What is going on here? Twisty did you KNOW that it was MUSLIM - YES, MUSLIM Feminists who managed to organized to get rid of the bill to pass Sharia in Ontario? And guess who took the media gave the credit too at the end of the day???? White feminist lawyers who assisted the Muslim women's case. Go figure.

Also, many religious minorities (like myself) call ourselves "hindu-atheists" or whatever-atheists in recognition of the fact that we are religious minorities and that religious intolerance at the hands of WHITE CHRISTIANS is something that has happened to us, and continually happens whenever we encounter ignoramuses of whatever religion.

Whatever.... I hate religion as much as the next radical leftist person, but oddly enough if you talk to women who've experienced DV they'll tell you "God helped them to survive". It's a fact. Women can't just 'sod-off god' you know... for whatever reasons.

Twisty, again I repeat I totally LOVE your witty, intelligent and smart writing - but if I don't point this shit out - I will suffocate.

b) Women's space:

Quote: Like O.J., my ex was a tall, athletic, charismatic, charming, handsome black man. Like Nicole Brown Simpson, I am blonde and Nordic looking. Simpson and I are both mothers of biracial children, both abuse survivors. Just as nobody believed O.J. was an abuser, nobody believed my ex was an abuser either. He was just so charming and charismatic and fun to be around. Except when he wasn’t.

Heart can you tell me what this was about? I really never understood what relevance it was to point out that Nicole Brown and you were both white and blonde and that both your oppressors were black and male. um, so?

What was the point? Unless, you think racial connections have any bearing on male violence.

Look, again I repeat none of this is about 'breaking connections' or 'bitching at people' it is because I am tired of reading bogus on the net. I am tired of being an 'invisible minority feminist'.

We all need each other. In my heart of hearts I truly believe that it is our politics that unite us, because I only know how much it hurts when other minorities ignore racism/sexism/classism in favour of their limited 'privilege'.

Note this has been Edited. PS. Please do not comment because you think 'I'm bashing your enemy'. This is not a radical feminist or white feminist bashing post. Thank you.

39 comments:

Y. Carrington said...

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Girl, you've said it all. I've been DYING to say this shit forever!!!

Y. Carrington said...

By the way, don't worry about me leaving. I ain't going NOWHERE. Believe that.

AradhanaD said...

In solidarity Yolanda! I needed badly to get it off my chest.

Cheryl said...

I really never understood what relevance it was to point out that Nicole Brown and you were both white and blonde and that both your oppressors were black and male. um, so?


Yes, I can see that you don't understand.

That was about me, aradhanad, relating to a woman, feeling her, empathizing with her, because her situation was similar to mine. What happened to her happened at the exact same time as I was being brutalized by the husband I was divorcing, while simultaneously being excommunicated by the whole goddamn religious right for divorcing him. I said that in my post-- I established the context. Why you took what you took out of context is a mystery to me.

My story is my story. I don't tell everybody's story, or try to. I tell mine. When I come to some new insight about it, I will tell that. Everyone hearing my story is free to compare it with her own stories, and together we can learn from each other. But in the end, I am one woman with my one, different, unusual story to tell.

I am not situated as other white women are situated. I'm not your garden variety white woman, and I haven't been for 35 years. I never will be. Neither was Nicole Simpson. Women like us don't talk out of the same "white woman" place other white women talk out of. That's another part of my story. Either you will get that or you won't. I have no control over whether you do, or will, or you don't. What I'm going to do is tell it, and make the best sense of it I can, and let the chips fall where they may. That's all any of us can do.

Heart

AradhanaD said...

Heart again this was not meant as 'an attack'.

I still don't see the relevance of that comment and you are right to assume that I don't think I ever will.

To me it reads like this "Paris Hilton uses her celebrity and fame to 'draw attention' to herself
and Margaret Atwood does the same because they are rich, white women." (and of course that isn't true).

That's how it reads to me...

Cheryl said...

P.S. Too, I said a whole lot in that thread, you know? In the comments. I quoted at length from Andrea Dworkin's essay on Nicole Simpson being battered by O.J. The context was also that O.J. was in the process of writing a book about murdering Nicole.

All of that matters. A white woman who partners with a black man is a race traitor and will suffer as a race traitor, for the rest of her life if she has biracial children/stays with her black partner. That is a unique experience unlike the experience of far and away most white women. We are a tiny number of women. We have insights into race/class/sex that no other women have -- not women of color, not white women. We have no community qua community, as other women do, i.e., no community of women like us, because there are so few of us. Women of color distrust and resent us many times, white women distrust and resent us many times, all races of women and men resent, distrust and are racist towards us.

This matters. This figures in. It's disturbing to me that otherwise intelligent, conscious women can't get their arms around how deeply and significantly this matters.

Heart

Cheryl said...

Your response doesn't make sense to me, Aradhana. What are you referring to re Margaret Atwood and Paris Hilton and drawing attention, or whatever.

I was talking about a woman's brutal murder at the hands of her "husband." Which was similar to my near murder at the hands of MY husband. It's as though all you can see is the fact of the murderer's race. You can't see the bloody, murdered woman because of her race. Or something.

Then, given the title of your post, and the fact that you sent the link to me, including me, I assume, amongst your "ignorant/indifferent white feminists," how would what you posted there not be an attack? That is an honest question.

sparkleMatrix said...

Thank you for this AD
Hmm I so much to learn, but I knew that anyway :-)

Y. Carrington said...

Your response doesn't make sense to me, Aradhana. What are you referring to re Margaret Atwood and Paris Hilton and drawing attention, or whatever.

And continually insisting that you and Nicole Brown Simpson don't represent the "garden-variety white woman" doesn't anymore sense, Heart. Every white person is "garden-variety"---that's what it means to be WHITE.

Disowning your white privilege is not cool.

AradhanaD said...

Heart, at this point I don't know how to properly respond to you because I can see that you are hurting, and this was indeed not my intention. You are responding to me out of your gut - and for that I am deeply sorry.

I was really hesitant to mention this on your blog before because I was scared to hurt your feelings and I guess at this point there is no avoiding it. As you can see I only mentioned this at the end of my post. I have also used examples from very old posts by reclusive leftist and IBTP. As you can see, I have been holding a lot of this shit in - and it's really got me emotionally constipated (lack of better words).

If I mentioned it on your blog recently - no one would have read it. I need you to cooperate, I need you to see that "yes, sometimes you too have an issue like many white women do".

You say you have no community heart, but when you divorced your black husband - did you get support? Did many people applaud your decision? Did many people secretly or openly 'demonize' your black husband?

Often times in the past and present white women are portrayed as being in need of protection from MOC. And if you called the cops or went to DV shelters etc... You would recieve/be believed more than say a black woman pressing charges against a black/white man for the same things.

Both 'you being viewed as a race-traitor' and you 'being viewed as a pitiable white woman caught under the spell of a demonic black man' can CO-EXIST.

I do hope you see this.

Additionally, "quote: It's as though all you can see is the fact of the murderer's race". Actually, Heart that's something you pointed out in your post. That's what YOU SAID. You said your husband and OJ were both black and that you and NS were both white.

I didn't know your husband was black - you pointed that out to me - so indeed it's you who 'saw your husband's race' not me.

Also, my post was meant to be about bridging the gap - not reinforcing one. I also think it was rather tame compared to how I sometimes do feel about white people in general, I would be completely lying if I didn't say that I am skeptical of white feminists. I did not want to respond from my gut - but from my heart and with sincerity because I think we all do hate each other sometimes and it's easy to do so. Networking and coming together is what is so difficult and needs to be done so badly, that is why for so long I have looked beyond a lot of things, kept it to myself and focused on a common goal - just hoping that the work that I do in real life with 'progressive south asians' could be separate from the 'internet stuff' I do. I blame myself for not addressing stuff when it needs to be addressed and in hingsight I wish I had cleared this up on your blog in that post. But like I said it was too late at this point. I also feel that if I had posted it on your blog - I would have been ganged up on by people who would support you without thinking twice about what I had to say.

If you put up a post about "AD stop being an arse (which has happened in the past - not by you)" I would probably react as you are doing now, think it over and then apologize/make ammends or address what I am being accused of (which I have done to the person to whom I owed it).

saltyC said...

Heart, you have given me so much emotional strength at times when I really needed it.

Your work is invaluable, and I feel horrible about this whole thing, but I think what Arandhana and Y are saying is true, and you could use some reflection on certain issues.

I was beaten by a man who is "peckerwood" I don't know if that's derogatory, he seems to embrace it. But even so I wouldn't include that in the dynamics of his beating me. I wouldn't connect to another woman getting beaten by peckerwood.

Anyway, I am glad Y and A are here to remind that sometimes skin trumps sex.

Want to say more but baby crying.

Cheryl said...

Heart, at this point I don't know how to properly respond to you because I can see that you are hurting, and this was indeed not my intention. You are responding to me out of your gut - and for that I am deeply sorry.

You should not be sorry. Out of my gut is precisely what is appropriate. This is *my life* you are talking about. This is not some goddamn theory written somewhere in academentia or a nice tidy book written by someone who thinks she knows it all because she read something once.

I don't care if you hurt my feelings. This is an opportunity for some long-overdue education, I think.

I have said a million times if I've said it once that I am racist like all white people are racist, that I have blind spots as all white people do. I said it yesterday, the day before, I say it all the goddamn time, pardon my French. If you haven't seen it, where the hell were you? I have never held myself out to be *not racist* in the sense that all white people are racist. I have always copped to this. Which does not change the fact that I am still *not situated as white women in general are situated.* And I never will be. And that makes what I say about my life very DIFFERENT than what other white women say about THEIR lives. I can't be lumped in with "white women" for purposes of discussions of sexism and racism.

You say you have no community heart, but when you divorced your black husband - did you get support?

NO, I DID NOT. I was fucking EXCOMMUNICATED for divorcing my husband, even though I was also targeted by racists for being married to him in the first place, in a million ways, over decades. Something I have written about many times. Once I crossed that line and married out of my race, whatever happened to me from that point on, it was all on me. I asked for it, I'd made my bed, I had to lie in it. My family, fundamentalist white Christians, Bush Republicans, TO THIS DAY SIDE WITH MY EX-HUSBAND. My mother *wrote* to the man who tried to kill me for all the years he was in prison for that attempt, even though I was enrolled in the state's Victim Protection Program and had my location hidden legally!

This is the experience of those of us who are race traitors. We are dissed by *everybody* -- our families, the surrounding culture, all races of people, courts, policemen, you name it.

Did many people applaud your decision?

NO. I had made my bed and should have lied in it like the slut I had proven myself to be in their racist/sexist fucking eyes.

Did many people secretly or openly 'demonize' your black husband?

I don't know what people did in secret, but openly, they told me to drop my divorce proceedings and fire my attorney pronto or they were going to destroy my business, which is what they went on to DO, which is why I sued their fucking asses off, including the ass of the black pastor who imposed this "discipline" on me (and whose white wife was my closest friend and joined him in that).

Often times in the past and present white women are portrayed as being in need of protection from MOC.

Right. And I never felt that way, did I? Since I married, not one black man, but two of them, and was married to them over 24 years time and had nine children by them in the end. I deliberately transgressed the boundaries of race, as a political act. I intentionally made myself a race traitor, as an act of revolution.

Then, by virtue of my nine biracial children I am VESTED in anti-racism work in a way white people commonly are NOT. Something it is not going to do to forget for the purposes of this discussion.

And if you called the cops or went to DV shelters etc...

Which is why I never called the cops on my abusers. NOT ONE TIME. TO MY OWN FUCKING HURT. I KNEW what would happen. Excuse me, I called the cops ONE TIME. When the husband who tried to kill me broke into my apartment and seized our two babies, 1 and 3 years old and drove away with them to parts unknown. You know what the police said? (This was 1974.) "He's just a father with his kids, there is nothing we can do." And they didn't do anything. I papered the coast with flyers, "Have you seen these children." Months later my ex called me from Montana and I told him I'd come back to him just so I could find out where the kids were. I flew to Montana and got them back. It was AFTER THAT that he tried to kill me. That was the ONE TIME I called the cops. It wasn't for me. It was for my babies. And they did NOTHING.

This is the way it is for any white woman married to a black man. My ex was arrested not because I called the cops, but because I was beaten on the doorstep of a home I'd fled to. The door was locked. The people inside, strangers, called the cops.

The one time I called a DV shelter I learned it was operated by a man, a pastor, who was a close friend of my husband! Never mind!

I raised my children NOT TO TRUST COPS because cops are not to be trusted. We called them pigs. We still do. They are no friend to people of color and no friend to white women partnered with black men.

You would recieve/be believed more than say a black woman pressing charges against a black/white man for the same things.

A white woman who PARTNERS WITH, MARRIES, a black man is automatically a whore, a slut, not to be believed, at the very bottom of the barrel. At least women of color who marry men of color know their place and are doing the right thing. But a white woman, getting out of her place, marrying a black man? Hell no, she deserves nothing but punishment for that. So far as white men under male heterosupremacy go, ALL the women belong to white men, something we can easily discern if we take a look at history. If a black man assaults his black partner, white men are happy to step in and rescue the black woman from the evil black man. If a white woman partners with a black man and is assaulted, in the eyes of white men everywhere, she is out of line and deserves everything she fucking gets. She ASKED for it. If she calls the cops, they are going to respond to her in precisely this way. Of course this is NOT true when white women claim a black man who was a stranger has assaulted them-- then, again, white policemen will step in to rescue the poor white woman who they feel belongs to them as against the violent black man. Similarly, a black woman claiming a white man has assaulted her is getting ZERO hearing because white men think she is theirs to do with as they please and it is in their best interests to call her a liar. But if a white woman partners with a black man? Hell no. She has crossed the line and deserves to be punished.

Both 'you being viewed as a race-traitor' and you 'being viewed as a pitiable white woman caught under the spell of a demonic black man' can CO-EXIST.

Yes, this is true, and both are evidence of racialized sexism which targets not only black men but me as well. Do you see this?

Additionally, "quote: It's as though all you can see is the fact of the murderer's race". Actually, Heart that's something you pointed out in your post. That's what YOU SAID. You said your husband and OJ were both black and that you and NS were both white.

I didn't know your husband was black - you pointed that out to me - so indeed it's you who 'saw your husband's race' not me.


Of COURSE I saw both my husbands' race! And I learned about racism AND sexism in both my marriages, and about sexualized racism and racialized sexism. I have stories to tell about that and feminist work to do out of those experiences. I'm going to tell my stories and do this work as a matter of feminist obligation and anti-racist obligation. What does it mean that Nicole Simpson is dead and O.J. Simpson walks, a rich man? What does it mean that I lost my business and was excommunicated for divorcing my ex, I, the privileged white woman and my ex marginalized because of his race? It means, among many other things well worth discussing, that white men and black men at times BOND over the bodies of women, both white and black, and particularly when a white woman gets OUT of her place. Then they come together in a show of force if and when she dares to challenge male power, as is SO evident in the situation which resulted in my lawsuit.

I don't hate you, Aradhana-- ever. I don't hate any woman, not ever, and that is from my gut and is the goddess's truth. But this post you've written pisses me right the hell off because it evidences so little thought and so little respect, not to mention it is fucking condescending and patronizing as all hell and I wish you would give THAT a little thought. You too Y. Carrington. Do you really think I haven't done a buttload of thinking about this over 35 years, given what I have lived in my life? Do you really think I haven't subjected ALL of my experience to as much feminist process as I could apply to it?

If you need me to cop to being a racist, again, I did that, but if you need it again, I'll cop to that again. But, again, I do it all the time. I have blind spots, as all white people do. I fuck up. I make mistakes. This will always be so. How have you encountered me online this many years and never seen me say that.

Having said it, it doesn't change a fucking thing about what my life, and Nicole Simpson's life, teaches us about MALE POWER compared with female power under white male heterosupremacy. We see this in pornography, we see this in prostitution, we see this when a white woman is a traitor to her race, as Nicole was, and died for it, and OJ walked, as I was, and nearly lost my life, and lost my business. When women challenge male power, women pay.

Dammit.

Heart

Cheryl said...

Except for one thing I will say again. I wasn't ONLY "beaten by" or assaulted by "black men." These were my HUSBANDS. I am making a point about male power. The fact that a man is of color does not mean he cannot exercise power over women. That fact is very central to my own feminism.

Heart

Cheryl said...

Clarification.

I said "At least women of color who marry men of color know their place and are doing the right thing."

Of course, I mean that is how racist see things. Just to be clear because if we need anything right now, it's to be clear.

Heart

AradhanaD said...

Heart, I am not going to comment right away to your entire post.

But I do want to point out one thing, if you were so quick to 'accept' that you are a racist (something I DID NOT state), then I don't know why the hell you're so upset that I was 'disrespectful' by calling 'white feminists ignorant/indifferent'. I specifically chose the words ignorant and indifferent because this is precisely as how I see the attitudes of net feminists portrayed as. I think the R-word is vicious and should explicitly be used for white women who are 'actual' racists.

Anyways, if this was the case you should be willing to accept my critique - and want to rectify it.

Also there is a huge problem with your understanding of white men jumping into save black women from violence from their black male spouses.

This is just simply NOT true.

Black women are cast as being hysterical and domineering. When they complain of abuse - no one, even judges do not hear them.

On the other hand, white men USE WOC when their own agendas permit them to CAST MOC as evil & stupid patriarchs. This does not mean that the black/coloured women who white men talk about actually recieve any assistance EVER.

For more info on the experiences of black women and violence - you really should read this entry by Kimberly Crenshaw Williams (though as you've stated - this is just academic nonsense).

In fact the reverse ALWAYS happens. The more white men talk about evil brown/black men and their evilness to brown/black women - the more services they seem to cut. It's really fascinating.

I will respond to the rest of this later.

Y. Carrington said...

Heart, I would like respectfully point out that you own words speak volumes. You are proving Aradhana's point more clearly than she ever could.

I hope that one day you will be able to see that.

Cheryl said...

Aradhana-- I do think all white people are racist and have blind spots as to racial issues. I don't think it's vicious to say so. I *do* think it's vicious to accuse a feminist woman of being "ignorant/indifferent" as to racial issues, when her life is bound up with the lives of people of color, not only my kids, but their partners, friends, my in-laws, and so on, and they consistently evidence commitment to anti-racism work. Twisty doesn't. The other women you name in your post don't. I DO. To me, we cannot avoid, as white people, being poisoned by racism. We certainly CAN avoid being ignorant and indifferent as feminists! Jeezus.

As to this:

On the other hand, white men USE WOC when their own agendas permit them to CAST MOC as evil & stupid patriarchs. This does not mean that the black/coloured women who white men talk about actually recieve any assistance EVER.

EXACTLY. That is what I meant to say and had in mind though I said it crappily. I'm angry and not being as clear as I wish I were, even though I'm trying to be clear.

I am also the mother of five biracial daughters, three of whom are adults. I read as much as I can written by women of color and want to learn as much as I can via my reading, but my lived experience has taught me about this, too, I don't rely on reading and don't need to be directed to books, especially by someone who has evidenced little understanding of my own position and situation and hasn't apparently read much of what I've written over the years very carefully. I'm vested in ways white women aren't, unless their situations are like mine.

Heart

Cheryl said...

Anyways, if this was the case you should be willing to accept my critique - and want to rectify it.

I am sorry, aradhana-- you are not the person to do this. I will read what you have to say, but if you're wrong, I'll tell you so, as I already have. You are not a white woman who has partnered with a black man in the U.S. That is a unique situation. You have not learned the lessons of that situation. You have not lived that. I have lived it. It is what I know and you do not know and nobody does, but women who have lived it.

Heart

AradhanaD said...

Heart - you don't sound like this woman here (I am trying to illustrate a point to you here): http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=333#comment-2176

Point being that not all women who partner with an MOC experience what you do. In fact many do benefit from being white and their partner's internalized racism.

Cheryl said...

These are the primary ways/systems by way of which white men and men of color bond over the bodies of all women, including white women; in other words, white women don't escape because they are white, don't enjoy advantage because they are white:

* Pornography;

* Prostitution;

* Fundamentalist religion, i.e., the way James Dobson bonds with visible black, Asian, men of color fundamentalists in anti-gay-marriage/gay rights and anti-abortion politics; the way women are kept from leadership positions

Heart

Cheryl said...

Y. Carrington, I would respectfully point out that you have not lived my life and so cannot speak to my reality. You've lived your life which has afforded you a very different perspective from mine. I hope at some point, you'll give that some thought.

Heart

Cheryl said...

Oh for god's sake. I have NEVER "disowned" my white privilege. I have said I occupy a *different position* than is occupied by other white women. THINK about it, would you?

heart

Y. Carrington said...

I am sorry, aradhana-- you are not the person to do this. I will read what you have to say, but if you're wrong, I'll tell you so, as I already have. You are not a white woman who has partnered with a black man in the U.S. That is a unique situation. You have not learned the lessons of that situation. You have not lived that. I have lived it. It is what I know and you do not know and nobody does, but women who have lived it.

Heart, please re-read how you addressed a South Asian woman on her own blog. Your passage above is unbelievably condesending.

Cheryl said...

Wait-- did I not carefully submit a post?

These are the ways men of color and white men bond over the bodies of women, including white women; white women's race does not protect them, iow:

* Pornography

* Prostitution

* Misogynist music

* Fundamentalist religion, where white male church leaders and male church leaders of color join forces to oppose gay/lesbian rights, oppose abortion, and keep women from decision making power.

Heart

AradhanaD said...

Quote: I would respectfully point out that you have not lived my life and so cannot speak to my reality. You've lived your life which has afforded you a very different perspective from mine. I hope at some point, you'll give that some thought.

the more I respond to you Heart the more I am hating myself a little bit, cause I never thought this would happen. Like SaltyC, I too considered you a mentor from the Ms. Boards.

The next time you use such individualist rhetoric with a sex-worker, give me a shout.

No, in such a situation you would call her a prostituted woman exploited by patriarchy and john's and I too would agree with you - except I would add that it's capitalism and white male supremacy to boot.

Cheryl said...

Aradhana, why are you comparing Y. Carrington with a sex worker? I am not following you. I am not using "individualist rhetoric," I am using the *language of feminism* which is that *each woman talks about her OWN LIFE* and works to make theory of what she herself has lived, listens to what other women have experienced in THEIR lives, with no one presuming to tell other women about THEIR lives as both you and Y. Carrington seem determined to do. You can tell me about *your lives and realities*. If I'm up to it and trust you -- not feelin' it right now but I did it anyway and I'm sorely regretting it -- I'll tell you about *my life and reality*. I have talked about *my life* here. You two aren't doing that, you're taking it upon yourself to correct me, having never lived as I've lived or been where I've been, and you're doing it out of books and internet posts, Aradhana. That's *not feminism*. Sort of like if someone who had never been a mother took it upon herself to correct me when I told about my own life as a mother, because she had read books or had a mother herself. Sort of like if a het woman wanted to tell me all about being a lesbian because she knew lesbians or read books. If she was up in my face about it, I'd tell her as I've said here, "you haven't experienced this, you haven't lived it." That would not be "individualist rhetoric," that would be common sense, and it would also be good feminist practice.

I read your link. That is about a Canadian woman married to an Arab man if I'm not mistaken, which is NOT a situation comparable to mine, a white woman who was married to black men in the United States, with its particular history.

Heart

AradhanaD said...

No the link is where Anonymous is a WHITE BRITON married to an "other" Arab man.

Do you see how Desi Italiana responds to her?

Heart, I'm going to go catch some Z's.

I did not compare Y.Carrington (I don't know where you got that from) to a 'sex worker'... I quoted your 'individualist rhetoric' to how you would respond if that was spewed from the mouth of a sex worker.

Like if Hartley said "you have no right to comment on my life as a sex worker because I think it's great".

I would contextualize it as a woman who is responding defensively to my 'systemic' evaluation of her experience.

Likewise, Heart I'm doing the same to you. Your "black husband" internalized his racism. I am possibly not going to be liked by Christian POCs when I say this - but systemically Christianity was used as a pacifier to soothe many colonized POC globally by white colonial surpremacist males.

Under this scenario, MOC did benefit more than WOC (because of the way Christianity favours men in general). Using your religious community Heart - I would argue you were in a very unique situation indeed, but one that in fact benefitted white supremacy vs. the BLACK COMMUNITY more than your 'individual husband/community pastor' and this is a point that you do not care to understand.

I am not saying anything against religious POC here because I do believe that on an 'individual' spiritual level religious beliefs can have some benefits.

Nuff said... I'm tired.

With that, goodnight for now.

Cheryl said...

Okay, deep breath.

I am leaving this discussion for now. This is the way I am: I get really, really upset, really angry and defensive around these particular issues so personal and close to my heart, but after a few days, when I've had a chance to think about things, I soften, I will be able to apologize, if I need to, will be able to acknowledge what needs acknowledged, say I'm wrong, if I'm wrong. IOW, I will see things more clearly.

Right now, I don't really know if I'm wrong or need to apologize. I might have posted in ways that are unclear or wrong just because I'm really upset and angry with both of you. I feel horribly disrespected, humiliated, embarrassed, and as though I was baited, sort of tricked into coming here only to be cornered and clobbered. I won't be able to see clearly or think clearly about this for a couple of days. When I calm down, I will be able to think more clearly about it and will, at that time, clear up what needs cleared up, retract what needs retracted, add what needs added, apologize, whatever.

Right now, it's no good for me to continue and so I am going to stop for the time being.

Heart

Cheryl said...

I do understand precisely what you've said there about religion, Aradhana. I do INDEED think white men benefit over men of color but ALL of the men, white and of color, benefit over WOMEN, which is what you refuse to acknowledge, even though it's true. Within that benefitting, white women benefit MORE than black women and women of color, but LESS than all of the men.

Jeezus.

It's enough. No more for at least a couple of days.

Heart

Femi said...

aradhanad--

I've lost exactly two comments now--I think I keep clicking over to check a different website while I am responding to this thread, and I'm loosing my comment!

Anyway, I'm not going to type out everything I did before except to say that in regards to the OJ case, Nichole was not the only one who experienced violence as a result, and neither was her family. The consequences of OJ being let go were devastating for many of our communities--a woman I worked with was called a n****r b*tch for "stand by her man" mentality that those N****r b*tches on the jury had. A Flint mayor was attacked as trying to "pull an OJ" as a mayor--in other words, getting uppity and thinking he had some type of power.

OJ may not have been punished, but black men AND women who had nothing to do with the damn case were attacked and put on "warning" because of it. How many white mayors were voted out of office for "pulling an OJ"?

Veronica said...

Oh for god's sake. I have NEVER "disowned" my white privilege. I have said I occupy a *different position* than is occupied by other white women. THINK about it, would you?

*think*think*think*

Hrm.

I am thinking about it, and I think you're full of it.

You seem to be saying, over and over and over again, that you get a "Get out of White Supremacy Free Card," for whatever reason. That you need to be considered a "special case." That you are "different" and that any WOC that makes a statement about "White Women" as a whole, needs to take special time and consideration to give you a special little badge.

Bullshit.

And, I'm really not understanding how you reconcile your "NOT ME! NOT ME!" with telling a WOC that she's got it all wrong about racism, of all things. Particularly, when it's right there in #3: Stop reacting to our requests with knee-jerkedness.


* * *

I do not know if I've been included on the Official Pro-Pornstitution Tag Team Roster®. Given other conversations I've seen recently, I may be, which is news to me! I was here earlier this month on the Ugly Betty thing, so I figured this is okay. If not, all apologies.

Femi said...

hey aradhanad--I just reread your post, and saw the p.s.--i'm sorry I commented and please don't post my comment--I would just email you this, but I didn't see an email address. I realized after I read the p.s. that you're wanting to have a conversation between ya'll--and I *did* just come here because I saw yolanda's post tonight. So again, please don't post either this comment or the other, I retract them both!

AradhanaD said...

Femi, Veronica - the disclaimer is meant for a certain group of people who luckily have not showed up yet.

They usually befriend dissenting voices essentially just to say "ha ha - you rad fems suck".

You indeed are not those people.

I didn't know how else to post that PS mssg, but I thought it was necessary.

I really wanted this post to be 'a dialogue' not an argument. I think I messed up a little.

AradhanaD said...

Femi, I posted your comments because I realized my PS comment is problematic and for that I am sorry.

My comment was not applicable to 'everyone' who has a pro-pornstitution stance. Just the few people who will be too happy to view this as a 'radical feminist bashing post'.

I don't know if this makes this clearer or makes things worse. I should have re-worded that comment. My apologies for isolating anyone on that basis alone. Your comments are valid as long as this does not become a bashing for the sake of it.

belledame222 said...

You know. I responded over at bfp's at how annoyed I was at being assumed that this was the ONLY thing motivating me, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, or ffs the pr0n thing. the i saw the apology. if my voice isn't welcome here, well, that's certainly your prerogative: nonetheless,

"good post."

that is all.

antiprincess said...

the disclaimer is meant for a certain group of people who luckily have not showed up yet.

it could be that they've showed up but are listening, respecting your wishes, and not commenting.

as one of the undesirables (I'm quite sure), I can tell you that's what I'm doing.

Sylvia said...

I wanted to share my support as well because you've written a great post here.

And to be honest, Cheryl, I think you had a kneejerk reaction to Aradhana's example. Nowhere did anyone attempt to undermine your experiences as a victim of intimate partner violence. However, the analogy you made -- along with your comments in this blog -- raises a lot of red flags. The comparison goes a lot deeper than just superficial likenesses you empathized with.

Theresa said...

You are absolutely right. Thank you for saying what you have said.
And, don't be so afraid of pissing people off!
-a white feminist who isn't perfect

Andrea said...

Great post, aradhanad. Seriously.

Heart> I don't think the problem is that you're suggesting women end up the bottom of the pile, but that women LIKE YOU end up the bottom of the pile, even below the most poverty stricken, most abused WOC. That is why people say you can't give up your white privilege, because you keep insisting that out of everyone - blonde, white women married to abusive black men are more oppressed than everyone else. And as proof you offer that you 'lived it' and no-one else did. You suggest your pain is more important, more PAINFUL, than everyone elses pain, Heart.

Not fair, not true, and totally coming from a place of white privilege.