Chasing Moksha and Heart are creating
"new theory" over at
Heart's space:
And voila - this is what it looks like:
Because of patriarchy’s plot to make her the standard of beauty she is hated, yet other than white woman (WOC) is objectified and raped as well. But still the mass, the objectified WOC and white men seem to be working together (consciously or not) to focus their hatred and cause of all woes on the white woman. Tres Brilliante! I am floored. I, as a WOC am a tool who is jealous of hot white women....yes indeed.
Heart I asked you kindly to remove my link from your blog and since you didn't listen the first time around (or release the last comment I made at your blog - asking you to do so) - I'll ask you publicly on my blog where you don't have such control to censor me - delink me NOW, I don't mind if I have to devote an entire blog called "heart delink me" and post the samething every single day on that blog - just do it.
ChasingMoksha - I am requesting that you do the same, though I do ask you with a tinge of remorse.
ChasingMoksha's original post:
Wednesday, February 28, 2007
Morphing Into The Oppressor
By being told that I cannot speak about race issues that involve blacks and other races on behalf of my husband (who is identified as black by society’s racial constructs), it is an attempt to negate my husband’s agency.
Last time I checked y'all were complaining about how marriage is a patriarchal tradition that removes women's agency by forcing her to be 'one with her husband' as a unit. As I see it, this is still a valid argument of marriage but does not limit the possibilities of what an actual marriage can be. So in this sense the only person 'denying your husband agency' is YOU. Can't your husband speak for himself? If a white man married to an asian woman said "I can't speak about race issues on behalf of my wife because ... etc.." what would you say? Okay... hold on -you have more to say about this.
As a black man, a person who has a stake in racial affairs and as his partner in this life and mother to his child, I have a stake in it too, hence he has entrusted me with his stories.
Like y'all don't trust trans men to speak on behalf of women - how do you know what it's like to live the first 20 yrs of your life experiencing racism? You'll never know the sweet pain of being called the n-word (which I have been called more than a few times), a paki, a terrorist, a chink (I've been called that too!). You'll also never know the sweet pain of being sexually objectified by white men who feel a sort of special entitlement to WOC - and the thing is, I think in your heart of heart's you know that there is just a special place in a white man's libido reserved for WOC. This comes in a myriad of forms where we're (along with ethnic minority white women) racially AND sexually objectified. Or have you selectively forgotten to omit the 'asian in asian p*ssy, exotic in exotic p*ssy, Latina in Latina sl*ts, ebonyin ebony hoes, russian in russian brides, part of the two-part series that is sexo-racism? In fact I feel the same way when I go to lesbian clubs, despite not being a lesbian - many white WOMEN have internalized sexo-racism to the extent where they will go on about how they 'love Indian women'. I have let it slide, I laugh it off - I even giggle - but truth be told I have outright sworn at white men for the same behaviour (of course only to be called a fucking stuck up bitch who's ugly anyways) and very politely dialogued with white lesbians about this - whom I consider my friends and who I give the benefit of the doubt to (and yes, I am being sanctimonious here and I don't care).
It is utilizing his agency to utilize me (with my consent) to bear witness to his racism. He is too busy experiencing the racism and trying to survive in that racism that he does not elect to write, blog, retell the stories of his oppression to others outside our family, therefore I am that person by proxy.
HUH? Okay, chasingmoksha, you know I would totally be cool with you writing about your HUSBAND's experiences with racism - but call me totally heartless, but this seems to me like you've written this stupid-ass whine-fest particularly to talk about YOU, not your husband.
Where's my proof? You've got ONE blog post about RACISM, and surprisingly (or not) this "morphing into the oppressor" one was the ONLY post under this label. Maybe, I've missed something. So where is this coming from? Ahh... your ENTITLEMENT.
One would have to wonder what is the motive of another who attempts to eliminate my husband’s agency and to negate mine in the process.
One has to wonder what your motive for posting this was? When you've got only ONE post under racism - and though I haven't searched your site fully - I haven't come across any other posts about racism against your husband or children. I agree there is a sensitive way of dealing with this - and your 'race' alone does not disqualify you from writing the experiences of the man you love and his encounters with racism.
I am also finding it deeply troubling that despite some really good anti-racist posts by WOC, rarely radical feminists ever cite those posts unless it's written by a WW or from an argument that supports the 'sexism trumps racism' perspective, I have to wonder why that is.
PS - that Catherine Mackinnon article Heart keeps linking to is such bullshit and can be torn down quite easily. I'm not going to waste my breath anymore on this subject, I think I've done enough - and at this point - I don't have any energy left to devote to this. I also don't like the idea of blogwars, and I feel utterly conflicted about posting this up. But I think it's warranted here as I am increasingly feeling the lack of support when i have commented on Heart's space and have made sure that I do not comment on Heart's space anymore.
Comments are closed. Everyone can banter about this on their own space, rail on me in their own space, piss on each other in their own space, shit on each other in their own space and I just don't give two shits anymore. Thank you.
Update: CM has altered her 'tags' to include more posts under 'racism'. I am leaving my comments above as is.
Update 2: My last & only comment on CM's blog regarding this:
I won't be commenting more than once (I hope) on this topic. I've said what I need to on my own blog.
1) Amy: Quote: "And I think it especially sucks when otherwise intelligent people end up becoming totally reactionary and defending incredibly regressive and conservative politics because, all protestations to the contrary, race trumps everything to them, and they'd rather defend a conservative man of color than a radical white (Jewish) feminist--as recently happened on Heart's blog."
You are referring to ME, just say it. I think as an 'otherwise intelligent person' yourself - you would have thoroughly understood that i made a specific comment about the MEDIA usage of a black pastor commenting on a BLACK woman. I nowhere gave him a free ride to say that 'he wasn't an asshole' - he was. I don't know whether you understand how 'race is played out by the media'. If you don't - maybe you ought to learn more about it, there is in fact a great book on how disney constructs race, class and gender for the benefit of WHITE PATRIARCHAL SUPREMACY. It's a wonderful read - and oh woe is me - it's written by a WHITE MAN. I recommend this to you - cause it's fun, engaging and really gets the idea of WHITE PATRIARCHAL SUPREMACY across: "The mouse that roared" by Henry giroux.
If any comment that I am disheartened by on this comment thread - this is the ONE, beause I do respect a lot of what you have to say. Did I say I was "defending the black pastor"?? Or did I say he was USED BY THE WHITE MEDIA TO PIT ONE BLACK MAN AGAINST ONE BLACK WOMAN? I am dumbfounded that someone as intelligent as yourself would fail to see what I was saying and say something as fucking stupid as "race trumps everything" when in fact, I have done nothing but contribute repeatedly to feminist writing and the feminist blogosphere. So it's fucking insulting as hell that you would 'reduce' my intelligence to being nothing but 'reactionary'!!!! Just because YOU fail to see the INTERSECTIONS of OPPRESSION doesn't mean you have the RIGHT to PROJECT on me! I think I was clear that I BLAMED THE WHITE PATRIARCHAL MEDIA for their CHOICE OF BLACK PASTORS. If you missed that central element in my argument - then that is YOUR problem NOT MINE. In fact, I happen to believe that this was DINES central thesis - and HEART (AS USUAL PER HER ONE - SONG MISSION, misrepresented DINES ARGUMENT). Dines, of course being a WHITE FEMINIST. So the issue is not Dines or Heart's whiteness but rather the stupidity with which HEART posited the thesis of her post.
QUOTE AMY: "I'm wondering also what you mean specifically when you ask if white women "oppress" women of color. My understanding of oppression is that it doesn't primarily happen on a personal scale--that it is a structural phenomenon that happens at the class level."
Thank you Amy, I agree with you - and when you comment on a thread called 'Morphing into the oppressor" one has to wonder who the fuck this oppressor is.
1) it unintentionally starts off with the assumption that WOC, are somehow more "POWERFUL" (i.e. the word oppressor) than WHITE WOMEN. And though white women are not at the top of the food chain, white women do indeed benefit via-the structure of WHITE PATRIARCHAL SUPREMACY more than WOC. This is not THEIR FAULT, but many WW and WHITE FEMINISTS often fail to see their own privilege (i'll get to that later).
Don't you think it's a little more than dishonest to insult 1/4 of the worlds population by saying that they are 'morphing into the oppressor' when they are of the poorest and most marginalized people on earth? So going back to what you said, if oppression is indeed a "STRUCTURAL phenomenon" using it so loosely is fucking insulting as hell. And someone as intelligent as yourself Amy, would clearly understand that.
2) Quote Amy: "And I think of situations like upper class or upper-middle class white women hiring domestic laborers who are Third-World women, and I think that's a choice they should not make--but I also think it's a choice they CAN make because of their CLASS privilege, not their skin privilege."
Who are the richest people on earth? THEY ARE WHITE, or after years of slavery, colonialism did white people automatically lose all the money they stole from 3/4s of the rest of the world? So skin and wealth are often very closely related. This is not to say that the lowest white classes do not share oppression or have similar problems to other poor people's globally. But when we talk about the upper classes and hiring third world labour - it is often closely associated to SKIN privilege. As someone who lives in the empire like yourself - I TOO BENEFIT from third world labour. So you and I do have that in common.
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Chasing Moksha,
Quote: "AradhanaD, it is really too bad that you cut others off so quickly. It is as if you are saying that if a person is not 100% in tuned with whatever you deem as appropriate and acceptable then they are not allowed to work through it, learn, grow, explore in order to reach the level you are owning to."
Ditto to you - I have the right to cut-off whoever I want, and when you say that WOC are morphing into the "oppressor" i.e. by using a word that has 'powerful' implications so loosely - I have no fucking reason to want to talk to you further until you've understood the implications of what you are talking about. YOU are acting like an MRA "if women get jobs - I won't have one anymore". But instead you and the rest of the bunch here seem to be saying "If WOC say anything critical of white women and their PRIVILEGE, they are taking something away from feminism"... no, we're engging in feminism - unless of course we somehow lose our 'feminist status' by talking about racism too.
No one's said that you don't have a right to talk about your husband's experiences with racism - and I've said so on my blog too. If they have said so - you should be talking about that ONE person in particular and not invoke an entire group of people (in this case WOC) to make an argument. That's dishonest and hurtful - and I'm sure you can understand why.
Quote: "I have very few posts listed as racism because I have only recently started using the tags (around Christmas when I switched to the new blogger). However, throughout many of my posts and loads of my comments around the blogosphere, I have dived into racism quite a bit."
Good, and I said I gave you the benefit of the doubt and didn't go through all of your posts - or did you miss that in my post?
Quote: "Therefore, if you want to insulate yourself further, splinter yourself away from my kind all the while the fucking WHITE MAN gets a free ride because GOD forbid we cannot discuss him when Miss Anne is really the oppressor,"
Because I am pissed off as hell right now, I'm going to just say this - FUCK YOU. I know you've been visiting my blog, I know you know a bit of what I talk about - so really fuck you. Do I link to Alas? Do I comment on Alas's blog? Do I talk to Alas? Do I support pornstitution? Have I metaphorically sucked cock of the white man? Where in the world have I given white men a free ride? This is nothing but a straw feminist.
See the problem with 'radical feminism' is that you see it as a binary system of 'oppression against women only' - when in fact there is a lot more going on. I.e we suffer from racism too - so my framework is "white patriarchal supremacy" (which capitalism is a part of). If you fail to see how whiteness is part of 'patriarchy', including how the world has changed because of COLONIALISM, then that is YOUR PROBLEM and you are giving white men a free ride, NOT ME.
Quote: "I am sorry for it because I do in fact respect your opinions greatly."
This is dishonest, simply because you just called WOC the oppressor - and I am a WOC. Maybe you wrote in haste, maybe you didn't mean it, maybe you are on your own path of learning, maybe I shoudn't be so hard on you - but when someone calls ONE group 'morphing' into the oppressor - I'm going to be hurt - especially when i am a member of said group.
Quote: "What happens to my husband effects us as a family which is in fact about me, I am part of this family"
And again, I've never said you couldn't write about the experiences or troubles that you face as an interracial married couple - or the stares that you get from society, or the difficulties your children might face when they are forced to 'pick sides'... etc... your anger should have been justly directed at ONE person who said this to you - and NOT A GROUP.
Quote: "Also, you are not the authority who dictates who I link to. If my wishes to exercise my agency of voice are not respected then I will play by those same rules. I did not give you permission to use my user name in your post, in your blog."
If I wanted to - I could have just called you a typical white feminist - but I didn't, because I have white feminist friends who are indeed wonderful people who 'get what racism' is and understand the interconnectedness of oppression WONDERFULLY. Actually just yesterday I had lunch with one of them. So I would rather comment on you BY NAME, than as a group. And yes, I have a group post called 'white feminism' under my tags, only because this is a recurring problem in the blogosphere, activism and academia. And you are right - you have the right to link to whomever you like.
Quote:"Yet you took that liberty. I am not some simple and easy white bitch (you know those hoes just pining for a big old MOC dick but cry rape the minute she is hemmed up) waiting to lose my journey in this life for some arbitiary approval that is given and taken away with no rhyme or reason. I got shit to work through. I would end it with a “snarky” little remark like “no love lost,” however, I cannot say that in good conscience."
Strawfeminist, strawfeminist, strawfeminist. Never said you weren't hurt by white male patriarchal neocolonialism capitalism. Never said it.
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Heart: "You know, what intrigues me is that the more as white women we have rejected our race privilege, the more it has been compromised by the choices we've made to be traitors to whiteness,"
Yes, the entire black race is grateful to you for having sex with a black man. you've said this once, you've said it twice. yes, I'm being a horrible person - here. So what, you wear this like a fucking badge. You're white privilege does not magically erase itself when you partner with a black man. It's as stupid as this fucking moronic post here: http://feet2thefire.blogspot.com/2006/09/sure-more-on-race-why-not-i-mean-more.html
Heart: Quote:"But a white woman whose lived reality gives her insights and experience and knowledge which might actually useful to those who want to do anti-racism work? Hell no, she should keep it to herself."
Poor old robert Jensen, look at how much he tries to be a profeminist man. The dude keeps writing about sex work, writing about porn - and all he does is get shat on - all the time. I am so sorry for Mr. Jensen. Poor white man who keeps writing about sexism and now he writes about racism too. And yet, Mr jensen can still keep getting published. Book deals, money, conference tours etc... Yes sirreee - Mr. Jensen.
Hey even anti-porn feminists like AD hate his work - couldn't be that when he writes he makes it seem like every woman can only be valued via their relation to men. Shucks, even he anti-porn crowd dislike him - and yet he tries SOOOO HARD.
Don't worry CM - I won't be commenting again on this - it's too much work for me.
I too am saddened that there weren't more connections happening. Oh wait, but they are? What? Yeah, they are -- you know when? When people stop calling other MARGINALIZED people 'oppressors' - there's nothing but love.
OVER AND PERMANENTLY OUT.
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Update 3: I have recieved a lot of really thoughtful and self-reflective comments from chasing moksha - who do want to build bridges. So much to think about, I think Donna mentioned there's a lot of different related arguments on the net - see also discussions on pass the roti too. It's a good time - we can build e-bridges!!! :)
